Blog
 

Something to Gnaw On

You know I’m here to make you think, right?  You know I’m here to ask the tough questions?  Here’s another one.

This bit is from Atheism: The Case Against God by George H. Smith.

Skeptic: “All right, I’ll agree to accept your elf in the absence of evidence, but you will have to tell me more about him since I don’t even know what I am to have faith in.”

Elf-Believer: “My elf is the cause of all rain.”

S: “What are, as you put it, the evidences of his existence?”

EB: “Every time it rains you are seeing my elf in action. What more evidence could you ask for?”

This dialogue is analogous to the theist who uses “evidence” in the same way.  He will first ask the atheist to accept the idea of god—e.g., a creator of the universe who is responsible for its orderliness—and he will then point to the facts that the universe exists and that the universe exhibits order.  These facts will constitute his “evidences of” god—evidence that he has defined into existence.

Here we see the consequence (and perhaps the motivation) of insisting that the idea of god be accepted prior to the consideration of evidence.  This allows the theist to virtually manufacture his evidence to meet desired specifications….

Most arguments of natural theology follow the same basic pattern. Each begins with a natural phenomenon—a fact, according to the theist, that requires an explanation. But this fact, he argues, cannot be explained in terms of other natural phenomena; therefore, we must posit the existence of the supernatural, a realm unrestricted by natural law, as an explanation.

Talk amongst yourselves.

[Post image: Elf by juliaf on stock.xchng]

6 Comments


  1. Don Rogers
    Aug 16, 2011

    There is no “true” evidence for the existence of God. A “true” believer doesn’t need it. However, for some strange reason, many “true” believers feel they must prove that God’s existence to others. That “strange reason” may be as simple as “that’s what I’ve told I have to do, ie; bring God and his “salvation” to others. My experience is NOT your experience. I cannot make you “believe” what I believe. I cannot drag you along on my spiritual journey and expect positive results. everyone must experience his own unique path.
    That is what I have learned from my own spiritual quest over the past six or so years.


    • Elissa
      Aug 16, 2011

      Yes, a spiritual quest is a personal thing, and everyone will end up all over the map (as proven by how many denominations and paths we’ve all taken). The existence of God cannot, sufficiently, be proven one way or another, but somehow, we keep trying. Or at least I do.

      The thing that’s hard is the flimsiness of the arguments. When it comes down to “I just have faith” there is no further discussion. Yet that comment can be said about anything–true or not. That’s what’s difficult.


  2. Sylvia
    Aug 16, 2011

    “I just have faith” was my stance several years ago. There was nothing anyone could say to take that faith away. As things changed in my life that steadfast faith slowly fell away. It was very painful to loose that faith. Now I do not believe there is anything anyone could say or do to make me have that kind of faith again. Does this make any sense?


    • Elissa
      Aug 17, 2011

      Sylvia,

      There is nothing wrong with saying “I just have faith,” as long as a person admits that it’s a lousy argument AND does not require another person to believe the same thing.

      And yes, it’s painful to lose your faith (at first), but I promise that when you grow into a different awareness of who that Being might be (or the absence of that Being, whatever the case may be), you become aware of how much freer and happier your world can be. Not at first, because the adjustment is so large, and certainly you won’t have the same group of friends anymore, so that’s disconcerting…

      You are making complete sense to me. You can’t go backwards in your journey. You can only go forward. Those things that you’ve discarded might never be looked at again. And that’s YOUR journey. You can only do what you can do. You learn things you can’t unlearn.


  3. Cherie
    Aug 18, 2011

    Elissa, at a church I joined many years ago, during the membership class, the pastor said, “We are all on a faith journey, and we are all at different points on that journey.” That really spoke to me and helped me to accept nagging doubts that would occasionally pop up. I now find myself surrounded by people who think we should all be in the same place and it really bothers me. I know that God – or whoever the creator may be – is so much bigger than we can ever really begin to understand and. therefore, no matter where we are on the journey, we are in the right place for us. I read a quote somewhere that said, “People tell us we need to have a personal relationship with Jesus…and then they proceed to tell us what that relationship should look like.”


  4. Elissa
    Aug 19, 2011

    Cherie,

    I love that quote. You nailed it. And I only wish I had been part of a church (of all the churches we attended) where the pastor would have made the first comment, that of people being at different points along a journey. That would have made the conversations so much easier.

    I DO think, though, to press the point even further, that most pastors would not go far enough to be able to say, “Do your research. Find the truth, whether or not you end up with God in the end.” Somehow it’s more along the lines of, “Do your research. Find the truth, as long as you end up with God in the end.” The first way is more freeing, more liberating, in that you are truly freed up to, indeed, find the truth, WHEREVER it leads you. [Although I understand the argument of most Christians, saying that God is the ONLY source of truth…which I disagree with.]

    Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. I, too, have been surrounded by people wanting me to believe exactly what and how they believe, and it’s not fun.

Leave a Reply