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Society without God?

I’ve just finished the most intriguing book—Society without God by Phil Zuckerman.

He begins with these bold, introductory statements:

They may be few and far between, but there are indeed some significant corners of the world today, however atypical, where worship of God and church attendance are minimal. These unusual, exceptional societies—rather than being more religious than ever—are actually less religious than ever.  In fact, they aren’t very religious at all.  I am referring to two nations in particular, Denmark and Sweden, which are probably the least religious countries in the world, and possibly in the history of the world.  Amidst all this vibrant global piety—atop the vast swelling sea of sacredness—Denmark and Sweden float along like small, content, durable dinghies of secular life, where most people are nonreligious and don’t worship Jesus or Vishnu, don’t revere sacred texts, don’t pray, and don’t give much credence to the essential dogmas of the world’s great faiths.

In clean and green Scandinavia, few people speak of God, few people spend much time thinking about theological matters, and although their media in recent years has done an unusually large amount of reporting on religion, even this is offered as some sort of attempt to grapple with and make sense of this strange foreign phenomenon out there in the wider world that refuses to disappear, a phenomenon that takes on such dire significance for everyone—except,  well, for Danes and Swedes.  If there is an earthly heaven for secular folk, contemporary Denmark and Sweden may very well be it: quaint towns, inviting cities, beautiful forests, lonely beaches, healthy democracies, among the lowest violent crime rates in the world, the lowest levels of corruption in the world, excellent educational systems, innovative architecture, strong economies, well-supported arts, successful entrepreneurship, clean hospitals, delicious beer, free health care, maverick filmmaking, egalitarian social politics, sleek design, comfortable bike paths—and not much faith in God.

Zuckerman lived in Scandinavia for 14 months, during which time he traveled extensively and interviewed as many people as he could, addressing several key points for this book.  First, he argues that “society without God is not only possible, but can be quite civil and pleasant.”  Secondly, he reveals how secular worldviews work.  For instance, how does one cope with death?  How would she or he describe the meaning of life?  And thirdly, he refutes the theories that suggest religion is necessary or an integral part of the human condition.  [And, indeed, in all my reading, this latter idea—that religion is innate—is a common belief among many scientists and philosophers.]

Aside from the fact that Scandinavia’s population is very homogeneous compared to the States, and therefore less likely to experience rifts among population quarrels (in fact he addresses this in the book), Zuckerman puts forward an interesting and thought-provoking question.  Is religion innate?  If not, would our society be better off without it?

What do you think?

[Post image: Sweden by dengel on stock.xchng]

22 Comments


  1. Allison
    Jun 16, 2011

    It is an interesting question, to be sure. I have started to see the dark sides of America being a “christian nation,” a main one being how acceptable it is to place value on things or people and measure them against “the” standard. It gives people permission to dismiss what they don’t agree with feeling completely justified in being mean and judgmental because the opinion is backed up by a greater standard.

    So anyway, all I have to add to the discussion is my affirmation that I don’t see religion itself as being a benefit to a society.

    This topic has really got me thinking today…thanks for that. 🙂


    • Elissa
      Jun 17, 2011

      I agree, although I suppose we should differentiate between any religion that fosters an us-vs.-them mentality and a vibrant, inclusive faith that encourages discussion and mutual respect—one that is continually learning from others…

      I found it interesting, though, that there are myriads of books out there, touting that religion is innate to humanity, when it might not be possible to make that blanket statement about everyone (i.e. those who don’t believe in God, at least in a faith practice way). Thanks for adding to the discussion, Allison!


  2. Heidi Saufferer
    Jun 17, 2011

    I whole-heartedly agree. Religion is a terrible thing. Don’t get me wrong. Personal faith is great and we needn’t abandon our personal beliefs. But when we use those beliefs to measure the value or actions of another person, I think we’ve over stepped our bounds and human beings.

    Religion seems to have warped faith into something that tries, in the name of a more god-pleasing world, to control and even kill God’s own creation.

    This whole christian nation thing is a little ironic to me too. I was taught that many of the original settlers here risked their lives to escape religious persecution. Yet now, we’re trying to legislate deeply personal decisions, such as who you may love based on religious grounds. Ironic to think that a descendant of one of those original settlers, who risked it all for a better life, may someday flee to Europe for freedom.

    After a little more thought, perhaps the christian nation idea is really true. After all, the colonists weren’t the first people here, but those original people were decimated, did that occur because the colonists saw them as savages? Because their way of life didn’t suit ours? At the heart of it, does religious freedom depend on what religion you follow?

    How much can we as human beings see outside our framework, or religion, and into another’s? Is not having religion a dogma in it’s own right?

    You’ve got me thinking today! 🙂


  3. Elissa
    Jun 17, 2011

    Heidi,

    I smiled when I read your comment—“Yet now, we’re trying to legislate deeply personal decisions, such as who you may love based on religious grounds. Ironic to think that a descendant of one of those original settlers, who risked it all for a better life, may someday flee to Europe for freedom.” As much as I’d like to live overseas some day, I hope it doesn’t come to that…meaning, I hope there’s a surge of change across America, in that whatever our faith, whatever we hold dear, we never lose sight of the value of our conversations and connections—with everyone…and I mean everyone…

    I’m looking forward to the day where we’ll have dynamic symposiums with atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, homosexuals, heterosexuals, transgenders—you name it—that are civil and open-minded and life-changing. I’m looking forward to learning and growing in the midst of people who also want to learn…and change…

    Because religion, in general, isolates and judges. A deeply spiritual and inclusive practice (and I’m including atheists in here, even though it sounds like an oxymoron) does not. Thanks for your insightful thoughts!


  4. Lynne
    Jun 17, 2011

    I haven’t read Phil Zuckerman’s book, but I did notice that he didn’t mention suicide rates in the part you quoted. Here’s a link to a Gallup poll that shows a correlation between suicide rates and the level of importance people ascribe to religion: http://www.gallup.com/poll/108625/more-religious-countries-lower-suicide-rates.aspx
    Does Zuckerman address the suicide issue in another part of the book?

    The statistics seem to speak to inner happiness and a sense of hope, which may not have as much to do with exterior things (such as economic well-being) as we think.


    • Elissa
      Jun 17, 2011

      Interesting…although, did you notice that the United States ranked 61 in religiosity and around 11-something in suicidal rate, but Norway ranked 29 in religiosity and 11-something in suicidal rate? If you compare those two, something else must be going on…

      Zuckerman doesn’t address suicide rates in depth. He simply says that according to the World Health Organization, of the top 20 nations with the highest male suicide rates, Denmark and Sweden don’t show up. Some have suggested that it’s the darker months of the year that cause the suicide rates, not godlessness, and if you think I’m joking, before I went to Antarctica with my research team, they told us that anyone who was wintering over during the black months had to go through extensive psychological testing! People tend to go a little crazy with no sun…:)

      In general, you’re right, though. Studies point to the fact that religious people tend to be healthier, possibly happier, but in my humble opinion, this doesn’t mean that religion is right. It just means that people have come up with ways to comfort themselves (they’ll be rewarded in heaven, there’s a reason for living, they’ll see loved ones after death, and so on) AND they are surrounded by a strong sense of community—people who believe similarly and understand the same rituals. They believe the same things.

      The reason I know this is because if you question (as I do), you begin to lose this sense of community (and security), and it’s unnerving and very uncomfortable at first. You have to find other avenues for community…with others who want the world to be bigger than any certain group of people (or any certain belief or faith).

      Of course, I’m not saying this about you, dear heart. I’m just speaking from my own personal experience…


  5. Sylvia
    Jun 18, 2011

    Kind of makes me want to move to Denmark or Sweden. Thanks for sharing Elissa. I need to check out this book.


    • Elissa
      Jun 24, 2011

      Yes, do…it’s a fast read…and so interesting…xo


  6. Tonya
    Jun 23, 2011

    This is very interesting and something I’ve pondered for some time now especially since it was pounded into my psyche from a young age that humans absolutely need religion to help battle the sin we are born with and into. If we can back away from that and look at what religion offers people I think that is more important than the morality of religion. People need to feel a sense of belonging and to be a part of something bigger than themselves. Without those things there likely will be a longing and a feeling of emptiness. In the US, religion answers those needs for a lot of people. I am curious to know what is going on societally in these Scandinavian countries that people are able and willing to bypass religious connections to obtain basic human need for connection.


  7. Elissa
    Jun 24, 2011

    Well, I’m sure they have other communities that are just as strong. I’m guessing, of course.

    I think you’re right, though, about people sticking with religion because they need community…but I’m not sure that’s reason enough to stay with religion…?? What do you think?


  8. Jörgen
    Dec 30, 2011

    Hi there!

    Just ran into your blog and must say I find it fascinating. It should be noted that I’m Swedish and I find this book very intriguing since I’m reading it from a totally different perspective and to me it reveals a lot about Americans. I find it very strange to be viewed as the weird one for being a non-believer :). I have always had the idea that people from Sweden and the US are pretty much alike besides some minor cultural differences but the author of this book has made me rethink.

    I should also mention that I’m currently working with a guy from California and we once had a chat about this, he mentioned that he found it a bit strange that no politician ever mentioned God in any way, not even the Christian Democratic party (which has about 4% of the voters). I told him that any Swedish politician who would do that would be considered a bit, well, childish I suppose is the closest term. I didn’t think more about it until I read this book but now that conversation got a new meaning…

    Anyway, greetings from Sweden to you all! I’m happy to answer any questions by the way if you wan’t some insights from the axis of paganism :). I also apologize for any spelling or grammar errors, English is, after all, my second language. I normally use Swedish when chanting our rituals :).

    /J


    • Elissa
      Dec 31, 2011

      Hi, Jörgen,

      Very interesting. I’m glad you’ve written. Since writing this post, my husband and I have talked to friends who are from Denmark. It’s their hypothesis that Scandinavian people (such as themselves) don’t “have” God because there is very little poverty in Scandinavia. I suppose you’d have to tell me if that’s correct for the Swedish population as well. Of course that’s a HUGE generalization, which you may take offense to. 🙂

      So if we take THEIR hypothesis to its natural conclusion, we would say that people here in the U.S. NEED God because there’s more need FOR him. This, of course, is not complimentary in any way, but we’d have to face the difficult conclusion.

      If you’ve read any of my other posts, you’ll know that I’ve changed my opinions (from growing up). This means I would support keeping God out of politics, validating people of other beliefs (which is NOT so common in my neighborhood), and letting everyone live their own journey.

      I just find it fascinating that we in America are OBSESSED with what others believe, to the point of being offended if they don’t agree with us. 🙂 Why is that?


  9. Jörgen
    Jan 01, 2012

    Hi again!

    I think I have to disagree with your Danish friends, even though we HAVE, more or less, wiped out poverty, I do not think that is the answer, at least not more than partly. For one thing it would still not explain why we in Scandinavia rarely or ever ponder the meaning of life, I know I never really have. We would also fear death and wonder where we end up after we die no matter how well we do materially. But we rarely, if ever, do that either.

    I think that whatever mechanism it was that made us build these societies also made us more secular. To me it sort of feels like we “grew up” as a country. It also seems we ARE a bit different, a few years back I came across a survey which tested different traits and I remember two things that stood out. Firstly Swedes are the most individualistic population in the world and secondly we are most likely to test new things. That means that we don’t readily follow any leader and if we do we might not stay in line for long. I guess the same goes for all Scandinavians even if this survey focused on Sweden, unfortunately I cannot remember how the US ranked.

    I also saw that there was a discussion about suicide rates, it seems to me that the fact that we consider death to be a part of life and have no religion that tells us that we would be punished if we commit suicide could be at least part of the explanation. Suicides are always very tragic, especially with healthy young men and women but it seems to me that the decision of not committing suicide should be that you love life and not that you fear death.

    Someone also was curious how we fulfill “basic human need for connection”, and I must admit I don’t quite understand the problem. I have family, friends, co-workers, neighbors, people I work out with and so on. It gives me all the connections I could ever want, sometimes even more to be honest. Is it that Americans joins and stays in these communities because it gives them a feeling of safety and comfort? If that is the case I believe one answer could be that it is built into our society as a whole rather then into these smaller communities, remember everyone here has the right to welfare,
    schools are free from tuitions even at university level, free medical care and so on. This in turn has removed a lot of fear and anxiety I would say and thus removed much of the need to join any community such as you describe.

    Finally I would like to say as well that after browsing around a bit it seems that atheists in the US are very different from the atheists in Sweden. Since it is a non issue here, defining a Swede as an atheist makes as much sense as saying someone is “anti easter-bunny”. We are not fighting religious people we just don’t care. We let you believe whatever you want without bothering you and expect the same courtesy back. This goes for any subject by the way and has nothing to do with religion, which is just another topic to us. In fact that seems to be appealing to those Americans I have met visiting.

    I don’t offend easily and I hope the same goes for you :).

    /J


    • Elissa
      Jan 01, 2012

      I, too, do not understand the difficulty of connection without God. But I DO understand it, in that I grew up with that notion. I’ve also had close friends say to me, “Elissa, I, too, am wondering about the existence of God, but I NEED my church, I NEED the comfort God gives me, so I could never give it up.” So there’s a comfort factor to believing in God that many cannot give up. [And I’m speaking only of the ones who are doubtful of God’s existence and yet continue to believe.]

      I also don’t understand the theory (even touted by some leading atheists) that there is no meaning to life without God. I disagree with that theory wholeheartedly. There’s plenty of meaning in life, if you should choose to not believe in God.

      And yes, there is a rash of new atheists who are as “fundamentalistic” in nature as “fundamentalistic” Christians, meaning they proselytize just as heavily, tear the other side apart, and in general are full of rancor. I have found that to be true. But as you say (and seem to be a perfect example of) there’s a whole other brand of atheists (and even Christians, I believe) who realize they can only be concerned with their own individual lives, and everyone else’s beliefs are just that….theirs.

      That’s my dream anyway. That everyone might honor others’ beliefs. That there might be civil and cordial discussion (not monologues) concerning any issue that might be raised. And that’s tough for a great many people, including myself at times.

      That’s why I started this blog. I wasn’t allowed to question growing up, and I so wanted to, needed to. 🙂 And no, I love the discussion. It clears out the cobwebs in my mind. LOL.


  10. Jörgen
    Jan 01, 2012

    This discussion about “needing” God sort of reminded me of the time that my father taught me how to ride a bike. Me in the saddle terrified to hurt myself and him running after holding the saddle.
    I was of course screaming “don’t let go, don’t let go!” It wasn’t until I had made a lap around the house seeing him standing having a smoke I realized he never hold the saddle in the first place. I’m merely suggesting that the fear of not coping might be a bit out of proportion. And yes I know that this is more than a little bit simplified (and maybe a bit condescending) but I hope you understand what I’m getting at.

    I’m also a bit interested in the talk about the meaning of life, as I mentioned I have never really thought about it, at least in any serious way. But I’m curious to why so many people are so convinced that there has to be one? There is so much good stuff around, like love, happiness, laughter, family, friends, the list is almost endless. I think what I’m asking is if you have the option of embracing what life has to offer why choose to dwell about this instead? Especially since it seems to cause so much grief? Seems exhausting! That is actually a serious question by the way :).

    Whenever I see an atheist and a christian from the US locking horns it is always in a negative way. I really don’t think that mockery and hatred will change a persons view on things. I assume that most people when attacked defend themselves and instead of changing their opinion they dig a foxhole and alienate each other even more, quite counterproductive if you ask me. If you let people think and believe what they want without judging they might be open to taking a sneak peak on the other side of the fence. If they do it’s fine to me and if they don’t that’s fine too.


    • Elissa
      Jan 02, 2012

      Maybe we need to look at the definition of meaning of life. The list you made (“love, happiness, laughter, family, friends…”) IS the meaning of life for a lot of people. Religious people may take it one step further and say that their meaning in life is to glorify a deity or some other similar notion, but within that goal IS the expectation of “love, happiness, laughter, family, friends,” and oftentimes when that doesn’t result, they’re angry at God or whomever they’ve chosen to believe in, because they feel betrayed. Either that, or they excuse it as God’s will. [Which, oddly enough, gets God off the hook every time.] That’s why I think the Buddhist notion of having NO expectations is so important. “It is what it is.”

      Are you asking what my meaning in life is? Either way, I’ll answer. Of course it depends on how we define it (the meaning of life). It’s not exhausting for me at all. My meaning in life is kindness. To myself. To others. Kindness is a great base to start from (for me) because it invades every area of my life. I try to live kindness. That’s all.

      You are absolutely right about conversations that go nowhere. Usually the conversation occurs between two people or two groups of people who either refuse or simply cannot “see” the other side. They’re too entrenched in “this is the way it is” rather than “this is the way you see it…ah yes!” Only when two people can ask honestly, “Oh, I see, you see it such-and-such-a-way,” then ask ANOTHER question, “How do you make that mesh with so-and-so in other aspects of your life?”–then an honest, OPEN discussion can happen. I know you understand that. It seems you’re already living it.

      P.S. I think the “need” for God is great in a great number of people. It’s difficult, actually, to separate out those who truly believe (for belief’s sake) and those who need (for lack of a better term) a “blankie” or “pacifier,” much like when they were children. As I mentioned above, I’ve had several friends express their great doubt in God, but they’ve followed quickly with, “But I could never get rid of him, because I NEED him, I need to be able to pray to him, I need him to help me through my life.” To go out on a limb here, I think that’s pretty damning and says more about the person saying it than anything else.


  11. Jörgen
    Jan 06, 2012

    I have an odd article I would like to share with you, http://www.thelocal.se/38350/20120105/ apparently this has made the papers all around the world today and when I read the comments to the articles in different papers I can clearly see a huge difference in the responses. It seems that European readers laughs and shrugs, posting comments like “lol, crazy Swedes”, “Where can I buy a ticket?” and so on while American readers takes it much more serious with remarks like “I will never buy anything Swedish again” and “You will burn in hell”. I might add that the kid (19 years old) who started this “religion” did not do it to mock any religious people but rather to poke at politicians and lawyers (file sharing has been a big topic in Sweden over the last few years). Anyway, I’m curious to hear what your opinion is? Are you offended by this “religion”? As you may have guessed this is no more than a joke in Sweden and the strongest reaction is pretty much a snicker.

    Using kindness as a guiding principle is honorable I think, to me the word respect is also very important. What I mean by that is that when I meet someone I (at least I try) to give them respect and then they have to work pretty hard to lose it as opposed to me getting on my high horse forcing people to EARN it. To me that feels like saying “I’m better than him and he has to work hard for me to accept him”. To me thats just arrogant. I hope this makes sense…

    P.S.
    I just realized that the photo you have on the blog is pretty much showing my front porch, or at least within a few miles. Hows that for a coincidence!


    • Elissa
      Jan 06, 2012

      Jörgen,

      Hmmm, I hadn’t seen that article, but I would be more likely to say (to the kid who started his religion), “Whatever makes you happy.” He sounds so serious about it all, like he’s REALLY glad someone is finally listening to him. I’d be more apt to put his “religion” in the category of a club, but then again, according to the definition of religion (“a set of beliefs generally agreed on by a group of people or sect”) he’s right. His file-sharing beliefs are a religion for a great many people, and they seem to want to be heard.

      That said, I don’t understand the animosity toward him. He’s not hurting anyone. And yes, you’re right, there are some Christians who might damn him to hell for treating “religion” in such a light way. But again, that says more about them than it does about the person they’re damning.

      I think it’s funny, and it’s the perfect example to prove how high-and-mighty people can get when it comes to the triad of sensitive subjects (politics, religion, and sex)! 🙂

      Thanks for sharing the article with me.

      P.S. I’d love to see Sweden some day. I have Norwegian blood in me, so I’d have to hit up Norway, too!


  12. Jörgen
    Jan 06, 2012

    This has nothing to do with the topic at hand but I can’t resist. You say that you have Norwegian blood in your veins? I don’t know how much you know about your heritage but I’m sure you know about the vikings. The meanest, strongest, most fearsome (and fearless) warriors known, called berserkers for good reasons. So, EVERYONE was terrified of the mighty vikings! So who did the vikings fear then? Their women. Yes it is actually true, I read some recent research and apparently the vikings lived in an matriarchal society. So the vikings ruled everywhere they went except their own homes. How’s that for a legacy? I’m sure your husband will thank me for telling you this :).

    And yes, if you get the chance you really should visit Scandinavia, Norway has some breathtaking sceneries but it is quite expensive to travel there Sweden is also considered a bit pricey but not as bad.

    Sorry for the off topic, but it might actually help explain our mentality come to think of it!


    • Elissa
      Jan 06, 2012

      Hilarious! I DID know all that history. Truth be told, I’m half Dutch, half Norwegian, so that’s a good mix, no? 🙂

      And we HAVE to visit sometime. The pictures (of all of Scandinavia) look gorgeous…


  13. Jörgen
    Jan 06, 2012

    That’s an excellent mix. I am a bit concerned though, if we go with all the clichés and prejudices (and of course these are always spot on) you are, as already established, a viking descendant which is scary enough but since you are also Dutch that must mean you are also on drugs. I mean a woman
    viking on crack must be the scariest thing to ever set foot on Scandinavian soil since, well, ever really. Good thing is that no one would dare to charge you for anything so you would have a free vacation. I REALLY hope none of my Dutch or Norwegian friends ever see this post ;).

    Not sure I can be much more off topic!

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